Narrator intro (00:02):
At a crossroads of uncertainty and opportunity, how do you navigate forward? This podcast focuses on making smart choices in a rapidly changing world. We investigate the challenges of being at a crossroads and finding the opportunities that arise out of disruption. Listen in on future forward conversations with the brightest luminaries, movers, and shakers. Let's navigate forward together and create what's next.
Lisa Thee (00:25):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Navigating Forward Podcast. My name is Lisa Thee, and I'll be your host today. We love to collect the most luminary movers and shakers from the industry to help share some of their wisdom with our audience. And today I have the luxury of interviewing Ed Soo Hoo from Lenovo. He functions there as the Worldwide CTO for Global Accounts, so those Fortune 500 accounts. And he really specializes in helping to drive innovation and transformation with his key customers. And so we're really thrilled today to hear all of his perspectives on the trends happening in data and AI and cloud and all the ways those things are converging to create new opportunities for businesses and business leaders. So thank you so much for joining us today, Ed.
Ed Soo Hoo (01:11):
Hey Lisa, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Lisa Thee (01:14):
I knew from the first time I talked to you, I had to have you on the podcast 'cause your wisdom just is, it needs to go far and wide. Do you mind doing a bit of an introduction about your journey? How do you get into this kind of work and what do you think that you bring to the table that's a little special and unique?
Ed Soo Hoo (01:30):
Well, it's kind of interesting in regards to how did I get here, what do I bring to the table? And I kind of attribute it to a couple of things in regards to phases. I had a blue-collar phase, a white collar phase, and a no collar phase throughout my career. And it's, it's fascinating because every one of those phases are what I bring to the table in conversations around innovation and transformation from the front of house to the back of house, and even to the out of house. In the white-collar space, when I was in the technology space, which I still am, it was two stints at Oracle. I didn't learn the first time; I actually went back for another experience. HP, Unisys, Novell, a local area network company, a BIOS company that owns 90% of, the X 86 firmware in the marketplace called Phoenix Technologies.
Ed Soo Hoo (02:20):
I have eight startups under my belt from pre-money to seed to IPO to buyouts, and even a couple of disasters. And then taking all of those different experiences, I also was a, I ran a data center that had a hundred thousand square feet of raised floor, used to be United Airlines. So, taking all of those different white collar experiences, it gave me some very keen insight to technologies, trends, business models, verticals, selling direct selling indirect, working with partners, and understanding pretty much the entire ecosystem. And so in many of my conversations it was fascinating. I went to my flat file drawer where I keep all my old business cards. I counted up how many different business cards I had in different titles. 38 and counting
Lisa Thee (03:20):
<laugh> A master of reinvention. So you go into a new space, you learn as much as you can about it. You help spread that information to the people that can benefit from it. And then you continue to innovate and grow.
Ed Soo Hoo (03:33):
And I share all of those insights from one end to the other. And it really makes a huge difference because in my blue-collar phase, I was a brakeman switchman for the Southern Pacific Rail. I was a machinist at Caterpillar tractor, forklift driver, truck driver, a warehouseman, a retail clerk. It just went on and on. My wife and I even had a graphic design business where our first client was George Lucas. Our second client, our second client was John Madden, the football coach. So taking all of these experiences and then even playing pool for three years every day but Christmas, traveled all around the world, ranked number six. And it gave me some very great, great appreciation for what happens in a company in what I call the back of house.
Lisa Thee (04:22):
It sounds like it. I started my career supervising the Cadillac engine assembly line in Detroit. So I can very much relate to those blue collar roots and also have an entrepreneurial journey as well to share as well as a corporate stint. So, I think that's why I was so drawn to you because you look at it from all the different lenses and the magic happens when you can bring that lived experience of all the people that have to interact with organizational change to make the magic happen.
Ed Soo Hoo (04:51):
Yeah. And it makes such a world of difference because I'm asking questions that aren't expected.
Lisa Thee (04:57):
<laugh>, I have definitely directly experienced that from you, Ed. <laugh>.
Ed Soo Hoo (05:02):
It's fascinating. What I find in sharing, in learning all of this is actually the, the key attribute that I find that has been very powerful is telling a story, hearing a story. Uh, there's, there's no lack. Thank God there's great technology 'cause the sun never sets on technology, but it does set on mankind and society. So how do we pull all that together in a, in a very different conversation and to talk about the outcomes, not so much the technology and the products. Because to me that is a fait accompli.
Lisa Thee (05:37):
It's the tools to get there, it's not the solution. Absolutely. And the innovation comes when humans come together to co-create a future that they can all buy into. And that is not a tools discussion.
Ed Soo Hoo (05:52):
Yeah. And innovation is fascinating because innovation is taking things that exist today but have never been combined, or combined uniquely or differently, or in a way taking two different industries and combining something totally different like Henry Ford did with a moving assembly line. His actually, uh, ideation came from a meat packing plant in Chicago.
Lisa Thee (06:16):
Wow. I didn't know that background. That's interesting.
Ed Soo Hoo (06:19):
Right. So, there's some very fascinating things that people discover when you go outside the box of what you're really good at, and to stretch the box to find new ways of looking at a problem.
Lisa Thee (06:32):
Well, I've always aspired to be like the honeybee and cross pollinate ideas. So I would love to lead you into some areas around data innovation that you can share with us around some of those moments that matter. So one of the interesting statistics that I came across recently is that 90% of data that exists today has been created in the last two years. So we are exiting the, uh, zettabyte era and by 2025 entering the exabyte era of data. With that in mind, Ed, can you help us think about a new way of looking at the opportunity landscape as the information is growing, how do we make something meaningful out of that information? As a business, as a society, wherever you wanna take it, uh, is open game.
Ed Soo Hoo (07:23):
Yeah. It, it's fascinating. We've gone from, you know, uh, megabyte to gigabyte to petabyte to zettabyte to, oh my byte, right? All these things are now to a point where there's no lack of data. It is the inability or maybe sometimes the effort to organize the data in a manner that is relevant, that is key to differentiation. And a lot of people feel because of the cloud, uh, that move everything to the cloud and everything's gonna be hunky-dory. Um, in some cases maybe, but all cases, no. So I actually look at where does data get created, stored, viewed, acted upon, and to build various layers of data value as it moves up and down the stream. Who is a consumer of data? Who is the supplier of data? Can they be both In the DARPA mosaic warfare doctrine, they actually showcase a number of assets that are moving in real time.
Ed Soo Hoo (08:21):
It's the edge. It's not just the battle edge, it's the business edge. It's in my storefront, it's at my POS, it's in my warehouse, it's in my plant factory. It's anywhere and everywhere. So while data is prolific, what a lot of people can do really easy is connect it, collect it, and store it, but that's not where it ends. How do you build the quality aspects of it? How do you build the quantity aspects of it? And then how do you build the capabilities to understand it more? How do I then inject third party data to kind of drive different perspectives, unique things that all of a sudden that used car prices would go up during sporting events? Why is that? How did I come to that realization? It's when you start moving data of different quality, caliber, quantity, and location and create some very interesting new discoveries. And this is where the magic lies is to be almost like an alchemist to mix and match different things.
Lisa Thee (09:27):
You're looking for those insights that can drive action, whether that be at the edge or with a large process of compute power, the different size data makes sense in different applications. One of the interesting trends we've seen is that 80% of data today is diverse and not structured data. What are some of the ideas or examples that you have, Ed, around companies really embracing the idea of data diversity and being able to organize it in a way that they can actually get some meaningful outcomes out of that information? Do you have a process that you can share with us or where do you start in this journey?
Ed Soo Hoo (10:08):
Yeah, I actually start with what, uh, happened in the Sixties where we had two four-letter words that drove the space race, NASA and the moon. And what's fascinating about is they broke down the space race with the eight-year journey in July, 1969, July 20, when they landed on the moon. It was eight years, but no one's ever done anything like this before. NASA chartered the clarion call by John F. Kennedy, was, we're gonna land an astronaut on the moon and bring them back with before the end of the decade. They did it in eight years, but they did it in chunks. And these chunks were Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. And what they created from the vision was three distinct phases that were tied together, lessons learned, best practices. All these iterations in this program combined with the diverse mindsets of nuclear physicists, scientists, engineers, sociological, medical, psychological. So the makeup of the organization has to be diverse, not only in fresh eyes, but wise eyes. And when you have that, you got a very different vibe in the room. You have very different contributions and perspectives, and that's when you land someone on the moon.
Lisa Thee (11:36):
So, working with Fortune 500 companies, I'm guessing you've seen some of the trends that I've seen working within them. Sometimes organizations can be very siloed, there can be some fiefdoms and a lack of interest in sharing information at times. How do you bring that diverse of a team together around data and innovation in these days, uh, and make sure that everyone comes along and has the ability to contribute meaningfully?
Ed Soo Hoo (12:06):
You know, all of these silos, fiefdoms, they stand the test of time. And, and the challenge is how to break that down, uh, layer by layer. And to me it really starts with leadership. And leadership is not by title. Leadership is the persons who see the opportunity and are given sort of like the latitude to share insights and to bring things together. So, in my role at Lenovo, a large multi-billion dollar a year company, globally, et cetera, we have so many business units, and I call it the farm. And in the farm of Lenovo, I take the role of the free-range chicken. So, I talk to dogs, cats, cows, pigs, horse sheep. And I share with each of them what the pig is saying about the cow, the cow is saying about the horse, and the horse is saying about the dog.
Ed Soo Hoo (12:58):
And what's fascinating is they go like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. And what happens from that sharing and connecting is a sense of community, a sense of ownership, and a sense of mission. And once you start to break that down, you then go to Machiavelli who was asked, is it better to be loved or feared? And it's fascinating because I'm not gonna spoil it, so I'm gonna ask people to read it. But it's fascinating what he came about, about using leadership to forge the common goal. And that common goal was a formation called a phalanx. When they're locked, no one can penetrate it. When they're not locked, you have points of weakness. And this is the, the key is to build a comradery, a mindset, a mission. And from there the phalanx forms. And when that forms, it becomes impossible to penetrate. And this is how they move in these kinds of dynamics. And in business today, in the age of uncertainty, it's a dynamic time 'cause two captains of industry have been basically set out the clarion call. One mantra is batten down the hatches, rough seas ahead, Jeff Bezos. The other captain of industry, says, full speed ahead, the torpedoes, Elon Musk. Which one are you? And then how do you rally the organization to form the phalanx?
Lisa Thee (14:33):
It really resonates with me for my entrepreneurial background, how, how much one plus one plus one can be 10 when you align around a common mission and vision that inspires people to leverage their talents versus hiring for the talent and getting the other way around of just looking at the, the technical side of things. What do you think defines a leader into one of those camps? How do, how do you think people self-organize into the, the Elon Musk or the Jeff Bezos categories?
Ed Soo Hoo (15:06):
Yeah, it, it's fascinating. Uh, both captains of industry are phenomenal personalities and they kind of, uh, inject that throughout the organization. It's a style, it's a mantra, it's a, you know, so like a mission. And it's fascinating to help people, uh, find themselves first they have to opt in. So how do you help people opt in? I always ask people to go in my time machine and I take 'em to 540 BC to the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Pythia, the oracle always held, uh, audiences and answered questions from various people. But she finally figured out, before you come into the temple, you have to walk up the steps. And she carved in stone in the steps, know thyself. Before you come up here and start asking me questions, who are you? And what do you really want? What is your purpose? What makes you get up every day with hair on fire? Because once that person identifies that we will find or they will find that role. And it's not so much to be a leader, but to be a leader when the right situation comes up. And that's the key for every leader to take that mantle, that epaulet on their shoulder that has the title, take it off, be a servant to your team, provide every aspect of what they need for their journey, for their purpose. Because when they do, they will light it up.
Lisa Thee (16:30):
Yeah. And everything you're saying really resonates, uh, with my point of view as well. Uh, I'm publishing a book called Let's Go with Fast Company Press in 2023. And a lot of it is helping people to go through that know thyself process. Because once you know what kind of legacy you want to leave and the people that you can surround yourself with, with a common vision, innovation is inevitable. You will stick the landing.
Ed Soo Hoo (16:58):
It's natural, right? And I always tell people, I hire people I want to work for, right? I see something in somebody, and it's fascinating. Every job that I've had in my career, I was never qualified.
Lisa Thee (17:11):
<laugh> Me either. <laugh>
Ed Soo Hoo (17:12):
Never. And what's fascinating was in, I was in front of 120 CIOs in New York my first time ever doing public speaking. And I just told stories about my father, how he raised six boys and things of that nature and blue collar. And I said, by every common approach, I shouldn't be in front of the best and brightest, and yet I am, what do I attribute that to. Luck? Part of it. The other though, was great leaders who saw something in me, great leaders who said, you don't know anything, but I see something in you and I'm gonna give you that opportunity. And because of that, I was able to kind of have this, you know, great experience in multiple experiences. And so what I asked after I shared that to the audience is that begs the question, what kind of leader are you? How are you finding these people, elevating these people, you know, getting these people to go beyond what they ever thought they could do.
Ed Soo Hoo (18:09):
And when that happens, it gets really contagious, really fast. So when I leave, I know, and I tell my team, I'm not gonna be here in two years. That's my job. My job is not to be here. Right? And, and once they know that, they know that they can step up. And my job is to elevate them and push 'em up and to push 'em hard. Because if they, they have to opt in. And it's so important for them to see that and to know that there is no ceiling, right? The ceilings that we have sometimes are kind of self-imposed, or sometimes they're sort of like, uh, you know, my background says I shouldn't be able to do this, right? I dropped out of college, I dropped, I had more things that you can imagine that everything would've said, Ed, just stay in your lane. Right? But I love bumper cars.
Lisa Thee (18:59):
<laugh> I would argue that George Lucas being your first client for creative design, uh, favors the bold. And so staying outside your lane has been, uh, one of the keys to your success. For companies that are looking for a, maybe they have a lot of information, they've moved it to the cloud, they've started the process, they, they know the terms data lake. They, um, are buying the right hardware and buzzwords. They've got the innovation team, but they're really looking for that overall company transformation that can only come when people opt in with that discretionary energy and take the best of their talents to really, you know, move the needle in a unified way. Can you talk to us about the stages of getting your data in a place where it can actually start to drive creativity, not just black and white, ones and zeros,
Ed Soo Hoo (19:50):
You know, the, yeah. The ones and zeros is, is one, is it's a accepted best, best practice. The hardest thing is looking at the data in a very different way. And while there's volumes and volumes of data, the ability to look at all these technologies, to power it, to create, uh, new aspects, you know, these elements that we have around ai, uh, these elements around analytics and things of that nature. At the same time, while we have some of those technologies, it's still the responsibility of the organization to utilize AI responsibly. And there's some fascinating things now. What do we do with all this data, uh, in the metaverse, right? We have this new tsunami coming of experiences and promises of virtual and physical worlds coming together. And, and I was on a panel, and they said, Ed, what's your take on the metaverse?
Ed Soo Hoo (20:44):
I said, well, first off I think it's misnamed. I think it should be called the messyverse. And the reason I say that is because there's no governance risk and compliance, interoperability or trust as part of the overall promise of the metaverse. So, until we do that, I think it's gonna be kind of messy. For those who delve into it right now there are three more verses after the metaverse, and they are the adverse, the diverse, and then the reverse. They're gonna come, they're gonna come running out with hair on fire. Like, oh my God, what did I do? So, one of the things about data is to really dig hard and deep. What do you want it to create, empower, and, uh, engage with not just your customer but your employees. The most critical asset of data is how does your employee leverage that at the point of what I call the, uh, lightning in the bottle, right? And it happens and it's not gonna happen 'cause it went to the cloud and did machine learning and all of a sudden you lost it. I was doing a, uh, retail, uh, keynote and at the end I said, what's fascinating about how the industry's looking at their challenges, they said, sales associates, store associate. I said, that's misnamed. They should actually be called a concierge. Data is about empowering the edge to make the call person to person, not device to device.
Lisa Thee (22:15):
Those are the moments of magic that the experiences that people really remember and connect with brands. That's the moments that matter and happen when it happens.
Ed Soo Hoo (22:24):
They remember it forever. So, it's about the three E's. Exceed expectations delivered through stellar experiences to earn the right for engagement, expectations, experience and engagement. People remember forever when they, when the first time they ever walked up to, uh, Enzo Ferrari's F40. It was not a car; it was an experience. It was based on experience delivered on a promise. And that promise delivered a lifelong engagement. So as brands and companies start thinking about what you provide using data, use it to, to deliver the three E's, exceed expectations, deliver through stellar experiences end-to-end to earn the right for engagement. Everything else is just a product and a technology.
Lisa Thee (23:12):
It reminds me of the good old days of the Stephen Covey planner. It's so important to begin with the end in mind. And if you start designing before you know what you're designing to create, you're already off on the wrong path, right?
Ed Soo Hoo (23:24):
And this happens to a lot of teams who have fiefdoms or power or influence. And this is where the diversity in that room makes a difference. And a leader, and leaders, in the room have to break down those barriers. And I wouldn't say deprogram per se, but to enlighten, to allow everyone the same voice, but to have their voice heard in a different way. And, and it's fascinating. So, data is an all-powerful thing. It's sort of like data is like technology, which is like fire. So if you remember Zeus held onto fire, did not wanna let it out, Prometheus goes, he stole fire and gave it to mankind. And, and Zeus was really lamenting about it because the reason he didn't want to have fire let loose because he could not control it. Same thing applies to data. Abstaining applies to technology. It could be good; it could be bad. How do you manage it in a manner that allows it to be effective at the right time, at the right moment, at the right person? How do you give an equalized data that allows people to elevate themselves?
Lisa Thee (24:38):
How do you give perfect feedback at the right time to empower somebody to do that, that big decision? Take that bold risk, drive the state of the company forward because they have enough information to use their subject matter expertise.
Ed Soo Hoo (24:57):
So, one of the things, the superpowers that I, I always call out not just being authentic, but to be vulnerable, to show someone that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to make that call. It's okay to take that risk, right? Vulnerability is a superpower. And one of the things that I have when I share with a lot of clients is some of the things that, oh my God, you did what? Right? And what's fascinating about it, they also start sharing as well. And it helps open up the dialogue. And there's a documentary titled In & Of Itself that I always ask clients and partners and even my sellers to watch. It's a 90-minute video, and it tries to answer the age-old question, who am I? And it's told by a single person onstage, one man play.
Ed Soo Hoo (25:49):
And he does it through storytelling magic. And he's a card mechanic. The last 10 minutes, I won't spoil it for the audience. I want you to sit there uninterrupted, no distractions, and see how it makes you feel. Because when you walk out away from that video, and I'll just speak for myself, it's quite the revelation. And what's fascinating about it is, you find out things about yourself. Every journey starts with self. And once you're able to do that, you do it with style, verve, and confidence. When you have that, other people start to feel it. When they start to feel it, they find themselves. I don't want them to be like me. I want them to be like them. How do you give them that power, that confidence to do that? And then when leaders drive that sort of approach, and of trust and vulnerability, that's where true power lies. And that's where organizations change.
Lisa Thee (26:50):
People have to be in an environment where failure is considered price of admission for innovation. They have to feel psychologically safe to be authentic and not just focus again on playing the game and trying to please, uh, the person that's going to approve their review at the end of the year. Right, Ed?
Ed Soo Hoo (27:08):
Yeah. And everybody has the power of opting in or opting out. They have to choose their own path, right? It's like three, three soldiers in a, in a foxhole in the middle of a battle, right? When I left the startup, someone said, what was it like? I said, it was like three soldiers in a foxhole. They said, what do you mean? I said, the first one is on his haunches, hugging his knees, rocking back and forth, muttering to himself, he's not going anywhere. The second one slaps the rifle butt on the ground, locks and loads, and says, when the whistle blows, I'm jumping out of the foxhole. And my friend goes, ed, you said there were three, where's the third one? I said, 30 yards out yelling "on me." And he goes, you're that guy. I said, we all are that guy.
Lisa Thee (27:51):
That moment, uh, that you describe helps me relate to the movie Wonder Woman. When, uh, she is, she decides to cross no man's land. I really connected and resonated with that, uh, scene.
Ed Soo Hoo (28:06):
It was a, it was a, it was a goosebump moment to see leadership. She shed her cloak, she climbed up the ladder. She didn't, she said, no, this is not right. And then what happened was, all of the people in the, in the trenches said, oh my gosh, follow her. Leaders come from all different places. And it's a fascinating thing, you know, for the audience to really look and dig deep inside to be that servant leader, to be that empowering agent, right? To be that, uh, casting director like in Top Gun in 1986 when she casted Meg Ryan, a virtual unknown at the time, she was only given three minutes onscreen, but it was her breakout role. And the comment from the casting director was, there are no small parts, only small actors. Make the most of that moment. It does come, it does happen. Like Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my closeup.
Lisa Thee (29:11):
So Ed, there's a lot of leaders out there that are trying to think about how do they meet that mandate to be leveraging information. Can you talk a little bit about the different ways you can look at data and how it moves through the value chain and the life of its existence?
Ed Soo Hoo (29:27):
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating how data's looked upon. It's looked upon as raw material. It's looked upon, you know, it’s the state of just collecting and connecting devices to collect the data and store the data. It, it reminds me of, of upstream downstream in the energy business. Um, and a core to that is, uh, let's say coal mining. So, we have coal miners basically with a pickaxe. Uh, they go down this big dark cavern and they have their hardhat and their lantern and they're picking coal and they're pushing it up, uh, through the, the cavern at 2 cents a ton. However, as the, the data or the coal moves upstream to be refined to, to be embedded in different types of value from synthetics to rubber to plastics and more, all of a sudden that 2 cents a ton is $18. How do you go from a coal miner to a data engineer to understand some of the dynamics of what to turn data into, to how to create data in a manner as you move upstream?
Ed Soo Hoo (30:34):
There are different ways to inject different types of elements or procedures or processes that add more and more fidelity, more value and more stickiness. And this is the hardest part about data, is I, while there is raw material, raw data, how do you mix and match it? How do I put on different lenses to look at the data differently? And I think this is where diversity of viewpoints, backgrounds, and skill sets are needed in the room at the same time. Because the a-ha will come from somebody who no one even ever thought of that sees something in that data that is so uniquely different when it's combined with something else. And I think these accidental discoveries are not inventions. They are innovations.
Lisa Thee (31:26):
Those eureka moments when you can bring somebody with a subject matter expertise about the problem you're trying to solve, with the data scientists who can curate the right information to merge at the right time, with the data engineers, they can create the structure for, uh, knowing that the data that you're making decisions on is accurate and high quality and high fidelity. To the cybersecurity folks that are making sure that, uh, you are protecting that information all the way through the process to the governance folks. Uh, there's just so many people on the team that are required in order to make this happen. It's not a solo sport, is it?
Ed Soo Hoo (32:05):
No, it isn't. And sometimes we defer to the, the, the data scientists, to the AI specialists and so on. Sometimes you need somebody totally different in the room at the same time. And it reminds me of a scene of the movie Working Girl with Harrison Ford and Melanie Griffith. And the, the problem that they outlined was a huge semi-truck got into the Holland Tunnel and got stuck and he could not pull the truck out. Engineers are all over the place trying to pull the truck out. And finally, it was a, they said there was a little girl who was observing this and said, why don't you just let the air out of the tires to lower the truck? And I thought that was a revealing moment. How do you look at problems a little bit differently from sometimes from just totally innocent point of view where you had all sorts of engineers, AIs, trying to figure it out, data scientists, right? And they're pontificating the moon and you know, the moonshot, and it takes a little girl who just says, just take the air out.
Lisa Thee (33:08):
Absolutely. Uh, innovation can come from anywhere. And empowering people to be bought in to that transformation is the key to making sure that you don't leave that brilliant idea behind.
Ed Soo Hoo (33:21):
Lisa Thee (33:23):
So I think you have inspired many followers today, Ed. For folks that are interested in interacting with you. Um, can you share a few places where people can connect, uh, if they wanna learn more about, uh, innovation and driving transformation through Lenovo as well as some of your keynotes?
Ed Soo Hoo (33:40):
Yeah, absolutely. Just go to LinkedIn. I have a profile there, where I describe myself, not with what I do, but who I am. And it's just three words, catalyst, connector, and storyteller. I'll see you there.
Lisa Thee (33:54):
Thank you so much. And for those of us, our listeners that got inspired by Ed's vision of potential transformation, we are offering a Future State of Data Workshop to clients. So, if you'd like to come and connect with myself, Lisa Thee at LinkedIn as well, I would love to have a conversation with you about how we can help you to start that storytelling in your company of what the future can be. And also Ed, I want to just thank you so much for your time today. I think we all got lifted and inspired in a time of uncertainty about how we can start to move forward with hope and creating the future that we want to see. I'm really touched by your thoughtfulness in going into the metaverse and thinking about the trust and safety elements that need to be put in place that we haven't really solved in Web 2 yet.
Lisa Thee (34:45):
And so if there's anybody that's thinking through that as well, I lead our Digital Safety practice for Launch Consulting. As we all know, criminals don't play by the rules or stay in their lanes. Those threat vectors evolve quickly. We've learned that in the cybersecurity space. You cannot have privacy without thinking about safety. It's two sides of the same coin. So, for anybody that is trying to think through that governance and those ethics capabilities, we'd be more than happy to have a conversation and bring experts like Ed in as well, to help you really think broader and bigger and make sure that what you build is the future that you want to see. So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Ed. It was a true pleasure to have you,
Ed Soo Hoo (35:30):
Lisa. Thanks so much for inviting me. I look forward to another one.
Lisa Thee (35:33):
Narrator outro (35:34):
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to the Navigating Forward Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. At a crossroads of uncertainty and opportunity, how do you navigate forward? We'll see you next time.