Exploring Tech Leadership for Humanity with Benson Miller

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Narrator

At a crossroads of uncertainty and opportunity. How to Navigate Forward. This podcast focuses on making smart choices in a rapidly changing world. We investigate the challenges of being at a crossroads and finding opportunities that arise out of disruption. Listen in on future forward conversations with the brightest luminaries, movers and shakers. Let's navigate forward together and create what's next.

00;00;24;19 - 00;00;58;24

Lisa Thee

Hi everyone. Welcome to Navigating Board Podcast. My name is Lisa Thee and I'll be your host. One of my favorite things to do in life is to collect experts and I'm so excited to share one of them with you today. I have the honor of interviewing Benson Miller today. Benson as a consultant, will launch Consulting, but he has spent the last 20 years in technology, primarily focusing in on helping at that intersection point of driving innovation, working with startups, working with larger companies that are driving innovation and the path forward with technology.

00;00;58;26 - 00;01;19;09

Lisa Thee

And he's going to share with us from an architect point of view, what are some of the things we want to think about as we're doing that. So welcome today, Benson. Thank you, Lisa. I'm so happy to be here. So, Benson, can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where are you from and what do you think is something from your childhood that shaped the work you're doing today?

00;01;19;11 - 00;02;06;20

Benson Miller

So I grew up it was born in the Bay Area, child of the early eighties and it was that point when personal computers were starting to come into the homes. My grandmother was an early adopter and I can forgive her for later asking me to install Yahoo! On her on her laptop. But she was the one who gave me her hand-me-down 8086 PC that was running DOS and I started to do programing like a lot of kids, ended up playing text based adventure games and was captivated, I think in computing and technology from from that point forward, just interacting with the computer.

00;02;06;22 - 00;02;28;00

Lisa Thee

So very much like casting spells and that that theme has continued in my life to this day. You know, I can I can take what you just said and apply it to my experience working with you. I definitely think you bring a sense of adventure and a sense of curiosity to most things that we've collaborated on. Well, thank you.

00;02;28;00 - 00;03;00;02

Benson Miller

I try to be that person. I try to bring that sense of curiosity, and sometimes that's easier than others. But I've been privileged through the course of 20 years of a career to work with a number of really phenomenal companies and and clients and just coconspirators from Adobe on the engineering teams. So for somebody who doesn't know anything about your area of expertise, can you get an overview that maybe a child or your grandmother might understand?

00;03;00;05 - 00;03;35;13

Benson Miller

Sure. I help companies understand their business problems and connect them, to wit, to technology solutions in a way that is feasible to implement and and delivers the value that they're looking for. So you help companies understand their business problems to find a technical solution to accelerate solving those problems. That's a better way of summarizing it. I might frequently just say I lead software development teams to help customers solve their business problems.

00;03;35;16 - 00;04;00;02

Lisa Thee

I think all of those will resonate with someone and they probably are different types of people that will resonate with each answer. So that's great. So can you talk a little bit about how you used data and technology to accomplish your goals?  

00;04;00;05 - 00;04;37;07

Benson Miller

You know, this is an area, Lisa, where I think that I still have a lot to learn in terms of using data and being really data driven. I help our customers maybe more than I help myself in this respect in using data. One of the areas that I've been focused on and in my career over the past, call it seven or eight years, is much more in the in the DevOps evolutionary movement, which is both technology related and culturally, but there's things that can be measured from there and yeah, so a good example of that is just how quickly does a piece of code go from check in to actually deployed and running in your production environment?

00;04;37;07 - 00;05;08;15

Benson Miller

That's very, very measurable. I help customers measure that and build the sets of KPIs that they can monitor how efficiently they're doing software delivery in their organization. When it comes to what I you know, when I take that consulting house hat off and focus on using technology and data in in my own in my own practice, sort of behind the curtain, I feel like there's there's room to grow there.

00;05;08;18 - 00;05;43;23

Benson Miller

I think a lot of us have been thinking about how to demystify artificial intelligence and apply some of these innovations that we've had in large scale compute to our own processes for accomplishing things. I don't think you're alone in that endeavor. That's an I. I'd say I use technology more than I use data. And that's the bigger gap for me, the applying technology, being on the edge or trying to be on the edge of innovation and technology adoption, staying close to the trends that are that are shaping the industry.

00;05;43;29 - 00;06;14;14

Benson Miller

That's something that I really love. I, I don't say that I have a data brain. And so those data scientists and the people who are hyper fluid in data, I keep them very close to me. They're they're worth their weight in gold. Yeah. Teamwork makes the dream work, right? I love the collaboration. We get to get what so many, if not leaders in data science, working with launch consulting and our data science team to bring some of that innovation and make it more actionable to people.

00;06;14;17 - 00;06;59;00

Lisa Thee

So working in the dev ops space and being a thought leader in how to actually deploy these really cool innovations, what are some of the things you've learned along the way, your favorite hacks that you want to share to spare other people from wasting their time as they're trying to get to deployment?  

00;06;59;02 - 00;07;42;17

Benson Miller

Well, I think the first thing that I would say is familiarize yourself with the 12 factor app framework that that framework codified so much in a in a moment that you could take that and just hand to an engineering team and say, if you do this, if you practice these and if you practice these behaviors as you're thinking about delivering your application, you are going to have a lot less technical debt. When you get to the end of end of your delivery or you're releasing software and on top of it, your your solution is going to be that much more manageable, observable, transparent in this behavior. And and so start there that's that 12 factors is just such an essential and the central document other things that I have learned along the path and I've got some scar tissue here that counsel scaling is you can't possibly start writing code early enough.

00;07;42;19 - 00;08;24;16

Benson Miller

Mm hmm. My background, you know, came from a waterfall, the days of waterfall as it was transitioning into Agile. I spent a number of years in central architecture groups doing big, large enterprise and solutions architecture for financial services. And you can imagine how hyper intentional and gated those processes were. And it took me it took a real evolution in my thinking in order to cast off some of that waterfall slow, hyper intentional approach.

00;08;24;18 - 00;08;52;13

Benson Miller

That's not to say that I don't think that planning or intentionality is important because it it is absolutely essential, even if you're doing iterative software development. But a little bit goes a long way and start writing code as soon as as soon as you have some glimmer of what that system is going to look like. If you wait till the point where you're absolutely comfortable writing the system, you're way too late.

00;08;52;15 - 00;09;21;00

Benson Miller

Yeah. My personal mantra is done is better than perfect, right? And allows me to get out of my own way sometimes in terms of at least getting it down on paper or in a computer, for example. That's totally right. I think I've heard that said a different way. An ex-manager of mine in a solutions architecture group at an insurance company, one of his favorite sayings was Shipping is the most important feature.

00;09;21;02 - 00;09;47;02

Lisa Thee

I like that all at once. Very good. So, Ben, so can you talk about what your why is? Why do you come to work each day and what mission inspires you to bring your best self?

00;09;47;02 - 00;10;44;06

Benson Miller

So I'd like to talk about that from a couple different couple different points of view. Some people are really lucky me and they have one want one thing that gets them up every day and I'd like to channel a bit many villains. Who was the CTO of level 11 that recently merged with Launch Consulting and she talked about three pillars of work and work satisfaction do engaging sensational work and work on cool, hard problems to work with exceptional people. That's where you get to get compensated reasonably for that work. And there's a lot to that. That's not one why I think more than more than anything, the whys that get me through the hard times are the people in the foxhole with me and the folks that I've been privileged to work with and continue to work with today, all day, every day are really the reason I love working with high performing engineering teams and sensational UX designers.

00;10;44;06 - 00;11;09;25

Benson Miller

And as you said earlier, I think that what we do is very much a team sport and my sense of both our collective capability and the inspiration I derive from that, as well as my own sense of personal responsibility to not let members of the team down, especially when they when they work their tails off, not to let me down.

00;11;09;27 - 00;11;38;14

Benson Miller

That's really important to me. The other the other thing that I would say, you know, setting these three pillars of work aside is there's something a bit more personal for me, and that's my my father's family. I that are immigrants, I think ultimately are all immigrants to the United States.

00;11;38;17 - 00;12;18;28

Benson Miller

My great great grandfather was a was a coal miner. His father was a coal miner. And so I'm just at that edge of the immigrant experience where I don't have any really direct experience of that. But I know that there were these these men who sacrificed and sacrificed so much in in this transition to the United States to through a lot of hardship and by all by all indications and accounts, very bright men working their lives underground and the amount of grit that that takes and the amount of commitment to family provision is.

00;12;18;28 - 00;12;50;20

Benson Miller

So it's just a astonishing to me that trying to live up to that level of grit and commitment is, you know, and I suspect frequently falling short of the level of of sort of courage and grit that they that they would have needed in order to thrive through those times is something that sort of in my in in those moments when I'm most shaken is a source of strength.

00;12;50;22 - 00;13;15;21

Lisa Thee

Yeah. I would imagine, Benson if your ancestors could your your life is their dream, right? That's something they didn't live to see. But that concept that their grandchild or their great, great grandchild could be driving innovation and technology and be a sought after thought leader must be probably something that's I mean, beyond reach in their minds. I, I hope.

00;13;15;26 - 00;13;51;17

Benson Miller

I hope I do them proud. Yeah, I know that you do. And in order to share with our audience a little bit more about some of the really interesting things that you've brought to life in the world, do you mind sharing with us one of your one of your most proud accomplishments in your career? So I am very proud of the work that we did for Philips Health Care in the In the Crack of Dawn 2015, January 1st, I started a partnership and a project with Philips Health Care as they were working to bring a new connected ultrasound device into the market.

00;13;51;19 - 00;14;33;25

Benson Miller

So the device was called Luma fi the magic that the Philips Engineers needed to conjure in order to make that device is pretty special. They had to take all of the magic of a large cart based ultrasound system and miniaturized it. But at that point, in early 2015, they had a device and they had a mobile application, but they didn't have any way of bringing that thing to market, controlling it from a somewhat connected device identity perspective and and managing a pretty substantially complex regulatory configuration environment.

00;14;33;27 - 00;15;10;03

Benson Miller

Within within nine months we were able to launch that product, including including a very complicated interaction with their SAP ERP system, which is, as painful as it might sound in order to bring to market what was their very first subscription connected subscription payments health care product at Philips. And that project and that product continues to exist to this to this day.

00;15;10;07 - 00;15;47;12

Benson Miller

We continue to work on it and extend and enhance the product. But the amount of the amount of challenge that we needed to overcome during that first nine months was just astonishing. And teaching us happy new tricks. How do you go from selling $100,000 MRI and CT CTE machines to selling a small device on a subscription basis to thousands and thousands of people around the world?

00;15;47;15 - 00;16;17;07

Benson Miller

It that was definitely teaching an old dog new tricks, and it required every bit of every bit of creativity, both technically and in terms of business and design acumen that we could bring to bear. So I love that. That's amazing. And for those of you who are listening that were on that project or who are still on it, just you are stars.

00;16;17;10 - 00;16;44;26

Lisa Thee

I love that. Yeah, the democratization of technology to make it more accessible to a broader part of humanity is an incredibly ambitious goal. I know one of the other things that you've worked on is very timely in light of the experience we're all having with COVID 19, which is working on vaccination distribution. Do you mind sharing with us a little bit about that project and how you got involved in and where it sits today?

00;16;44;28 - 00;17;11;06

Benson Miller

Lisa, thanks so much for asking that question. So we're working on a project that excites me just enormously. I became engaged on this project earlier this year, but the work is happening under the umbrella of a nonprofit organization whose mission is about it is to revolutionize and greatly improve the way that vaccine cold chain data is handled around the world.

00;17;11;10 - 00;17;34;22

Benson Miller

And so if you're not familiar with the vaccine cold chain, the brief summary there is that vaccines need to be temperature controlled and they need to be controlled from the point of manufacture to the point of consumption. And so that's a that's a very challenging that's a very challenging journey. It's a very challenging technology solution to pull off.

00;17;34;22 - 00;18;11;15

Benson Miller

And it's especially challenging in the developing world where you have problems such as of variable power or regular brownouts or challenging connectivity in order to be able to monitor these these devices. And so the customer that we're working with is focused on improvements in a number of these areas, whether it's refrigeration technology, so fridges that can they can maintain appropriate environmental conditions even under really poor power availability situations.

00;18;11;17 - 00;18;40;27

Benson Miller

So that's a key piece of it. But the other pieces in the event that in the event that you have an alarm or an alert or an environmental condition within a fridge or a freezer that affects the vaccines directly, how do you know and how quickly can you know so that you can do something about it? It may be that the all of the vaccine that's in that and that refrigerator unit needs to be replaced.

00;18;40;29 - 00;19;02;03

Benson Miller

And so now you have action that needs to occur. And it's better to know that something needs to change or that you need to ship a new vaccine to that facility sooner rather than later. Otherwise, you're going to have a number of people who aren't getting vaccinated or they're getting vaccinated with with vaccines that just aren't effective. And a lot of those people are.

00;19;02;03 - 00;19;34;04

Benson Miller

It's not easy for them to drive down the street and get back to you either. Right? That's absolute lutely. Right. And so the solution that we've been we've been working on building over the past number of years and is now actually working in in both Kenya and Nigeria, where we've built a global vaccine cold chain system that takes telemetry data from a variety of different providers in the cold chain environment.

00;19;34;04 - 00;20;02;24

Benson Miller

So you to make that a little bit more concrete, you are a manufacturer of a smart refrigerator that emits telemetry data over a cellular connection, or you have a refrigerator tag. And these are really a common piece of hardware. It's just an environmental monitoring device. The a little bit bigger than your wallet that you can put in a fridge or a freezer that logs all of the environmental condition data within that within that unit.

00;20;02;27 - 00;20;25;20

Benson Miller

Then you can take that thing out, plug it into a mobile device via USB and you can send the data somewhere. Now, one of the core challenges in managing a public health program within a country is that you may have a number of different providers. You purchased some smart fridges from manufacturer A, you've purchased a bunch of of these smart tags fridge tags from a manufacturer.

00;20;25;20 - 00;21;03;07

Benson Miller

B you might have a third provider in a different region. And for most of so most of the history of vaccine cold chain telemetry data collection, the telemetry, the the manufacturers that collect the telemetry data are also the ones that provide a proprietary reporting solution. So what you end up having is you end up having these silos and these fragmented views of your telemetry of your cold chain infrastructure across your country.

00;21;03;10 - 00;21;49;01

Benson Miller

So you've got little pockets that are managed by by vendor, a little pockets that are managed by a vendor. B, the purpose of what we've built is to take heterogeneous, cold chain data from any device within your entire country and bring it into one place so that you as a as an official representative of, say, the Ministry of Health in Kenya can control that collection, can make determinations and decisions about where that data gets routed and that we then have a it was a clear interface for any downstream provider of reporting tools to collect that data and provide therefore unified reporting countrywide on all on the state of your culture in near real time.

00;21;49;03 - 00;22;26;16

Lisa Thee

So in other words, you guys really thought through the human experience of how did the decision makers in this environment get a single pane of glass view of what's happening with their program so that they can make better decisions real time, and then also communicate those out to all the people that are affected?

00;22;26;18 - 00;23;11;19

Benson Miller

That's exactly right. The real need here is to just think through the implications both in both in terms of the user experience, but also in terms of some really key nonfunctional considerations, because this is a it's a multitenant system. The global cold chain data interchange can be used by any public health program on earth. Now the data between different public health programs is segregated and independent, but there's a lot of rightful, rightful concern about the level of isolation between between, say, my data and another country's data. It's some of the things that are interesting to us as we were as we were starting this program is that cold chain data is one way in which you could you could understand the stability of the power infrastructure of another country.

00;23;11;22 - 00;23;37;20

Lisa Thee

And so it's sensitive. Yeah. Needs to be treated with appropriate, appropriate controls and attention. So you factored in data privacy, you factored in the human experience of digital transformation and you factored in how do we make sure that this is applying to the goal we're trying to accomplish without any other unintended consequences of sharing sensitive information that can be a proxy?

00;23;37;22 - 00;24;08;20

Benson Miller

That's exactly right. And where the system currently stands, is this being used by our customer as essentially a demonstrator to help inform rulemaking within the W.H. show? So what does the future of cold chain telemetry data collection and distribution look like? And how do you empower the real owners of that data? These these officers within a public health program of the country to be able to actively control where their data is coming from and where their data is going.

00;24;08;23 - 00;24;39;27

Lisa Thee

So. Benson For our listeners that are not familiar with the term telemetry, do you mind just defining that for them? Yeah, that's great. It's sometimes easy to forget that we speak in jargon.  

00;24;39;29 - 00;25;08;27

Benson Miller

All I mean by telemetry is I mean the of the time series of data that reflects the environmental conditions within a refrigerator or freezer. So at 10:35 a.m., this refrigerator was at one degrees centigrade. But that's a that's a very simple example of telemetry data, but that's sort of the archetype of telemetry data that you'll find in the courtroom. Great. Thank you. So you mentioned collaborating with the World Health Organization. I think we all are eagerly awaiting a COVID vaccine. I've heard anecdotally that the temperature ranges that they need to be stored in are pretty cold, less than one degree.

00;25;08;29 - 00;25;33;04

Lisa Thee

And so I was wondering, how are you looking at keeping priorities top of mind for decision makers that are making these choices for district distribution? How are you helping to make sure that they're making informed decisions and they understand how to get what solutions they want to market in the most effective way as well?

00;25;33;04 - 00;26;13;28

Benson Miller

So that's a that's a great question. It's very timely. And I would say the work that we're doing and it has the work that we're doing is one small piece of that. And a lot of victory that we've had recently is just recognizing that the system that we've built will, will, will and does today without any changes, satisfy the needs for at least the data collection and distribution for ultra low temperature telemetry telemetry loggers and and and freezer devices that will become part of the global coronavirus distribution network.

00;26;14;01 - 00;26;59;27

Benson Miller

Now, it's amazing the the investment that will be required in order to put these ultralow temperature freezers throughout the world in order to support global, you know, get getting getting these vaccines. The last mile to people is an astonishingly large amount of money that's required. There are there are a lot more fundamental problems with with these questions about who is going to pay for and how do we how will we fund the purchase of thousands and thousands of these new class of ultralow temperature freezers worldwide?

00;26;59;29 - 00;27;30;23

Benson Miller

Yeah, I think we all have a lot of big thinking problems to solve from a broader perspective over the next few years and we're collectively global in that approach. Right? We do. And and certainly the things that we've we've done with launch are ready to handle those systems. We're already working with some of the top manufacturers of these new ultra low temperature devices.

00;27;30;25 - 00;27;54;07

Lisa Thee

And the initial indicators are of the global cold chain data interchange that we built is works completely smoothly with with the new class devices. It's amazing. So but so where do you go to keep learning and growing in your field? You've been innovating with technology for the last 20 years. Nothing stayed stagnant. Where How do you keep yourself fresh?

00;27;54;09 - 00;28;29;17

Benson Miller

Well, so I think, you know, keeping for for me, keeping fresh is punctuated equilibrium. There are long periods where I will immerse myself in the specific needs of a client project. And that might not be necessarily keeping me fresh, but it allows me to really deeply understand customers problems of customers, technology constraints and and what technologies we might be able to apply.

00;28;29;19 - 00;28;59;10

Benson Miller

It feels like every 6 to 9 months I come up for air and I check in with some other thought leaders that I follow, whether it's on social media or just through through reaching out to some of my colleagues here at launch and then some previous companies that I really respect, and then either going and having a drink with them or doing a, you know, now a Zoom call to understand the trends that they're seeing.

00;28;59;12 - 00;29;29;08

Lisa Thee

This is the this is keeping sharp. Keeping fresh is the area where social media has been most helpful to me in my career. I'm sort of by nature much more of an introvert. I don't tend to publish very much information out into the network, but I do consume a lot. And any particular people you recommend our listeners follow that you find puts out really interesting information.

00;29;29;11 - 00;30;13;13

Benson Miller

So the one person who has maybe shaped my thinking in the last seven or eight years more than anybody else is is Andrew Schaefer. And he was, I think on Twitter, he goes by a little idea and he's a he came up through the DevOps movement here. He's a software developer. He he's done really sensational, sensational presentations at Velocity conf the Cloud Foundry Conference in terms of folks on the bleeding edge of Cloud DevOps movement, rapid delivery of software practices.

00;30;13;15 - 00;30;36;12

Benson Miller

I think he's got his finger very much on the pulse. He's also irreverent in ways that really resonate with me. I just, I sort of love the way that he thinks about and talks about and and is sort of coolly irreverent in the way that he will poke fun at the ideas that we all held ten years ago.

00;30;36;14 - 00;31;07;08

Lisa Thee

I like that having a good sense of humor is always helpful. So, hey, Benson, I think that it's common for people that are working at large companies to run up against a little bit of not invented here syndrome at times. And I was wondering if you could share your point of view being somebody that has been a resource as both a consultant and then also with startups on how to help people that recognize there.

00;31;07;15 - 00;31;30;16

Benson Miller

There needs to be some innovation in the space better, maybe meeting some resistance to bringing some outside thinking in. How would you help them to explain to their their teams or their managers why working with somebody with a fresh perspective could be value added? A hallmark of consulting is to make your clients seem like the smartest people in the room and the visionaries.

00;31;30;19 - 00;32;11;25

Benson Miller

And in many cases, our clients really are, you know, we are privileged to work with just some some sensational force. I think the the way that I've tended to handle things like this in my past is if I sense that there is is is reticence around bringing in a new technology or a not invented here syndrome, that these are problems that don't get resolved instantly and immediately, but you can help your customer by working with them more or less behind closed doors.

00;32;11;27 - 00;32;47;25

Benson Miller

You work with them outside of public venues to help to help influence. But what influencing really means is you provide a sounding board, you plant seeds, you water them in the I. I don't believe in general that big established companies tend to make huge shifts forward. Occasionally you'll see that and it's always incredibly impressive when that happens. More often than not within an organization.

00;32;47;25 - 00;33;04;28

Benson Miller

What you can hope to do is you can hope to maybe place a little bit of fertilizer next to the plant, a little bit to the east, and you water that plant a little bit to the east. And over time, that plant will, you know, in Syria will start to migrate east and so you have to pick your battles.

00;33;04;28 - 00;33;34;18

Benson Miller

You have to know where to where to plant the water. And you have to be intentional about and very selective about what are the most important things for our customer and our partners to be doing at any given moment. And and then help them by acting as that asset advisor, as a sounding board to lay down the fertilizer and water themselves.

00;33;34;20 - 00;34;10;14

Lisa Thee

Yeah. Benson I think my favorite question that one of my board members would ask me at my corporation was what is the problem that's keeping up the CFO at night that you're solving for your customers? That's usually a good way to figure out where to start planting some of those resources, right?  

00;34;10;16 - 00;34;36;08

Benson Miller

That's absolutely right. And and sometimes you're actually working with the CFO and so that these issues become a lot easier to resolve if you're working higher in an organization, then those concerns about not invented here, I don't my experiences, they don't tend to occur as often. It's when you're working with people at different levels within within the organization and you with the challenges, empowering them, helping them maybe understand the things that you might be hearing from the CFO, the CFO, or the CIO, the CTO of the organization, so that they can feel less constrained. Yeah, yeah. Helping to bring the point of view of the decision.

00;34;36;15 - 00;34;58;21

Benson Miller

The budget creators to the people that get to execute and spend those budgets right and help them know what are hard boundaries and what are wiggly boundaries and where they can push to do the right thing for the company and think like the CEO of the company. Right. Have the company's best interests in mind. That's that's right. And this is a place to where I that's unique.

00;34;58;22 - 00;35;27;08

Lisa Thee

You operate very differently in a consulting world. There are sometimes just financial constraints that you're up against, and in other places you'll hit very human sorts of boundaries. Is this a courage problem? Is it a vision problem or is it a simply a communication problem? And am I not being clear? Is the problem not clear enough? And those are the timing, Right.

00;35;27;08 - 00;35;57;21

Benson Miller

Timing is always a variable in the equation. That's right. And I think these are yeah, we could probably go on with all the sorts of things that where leaders feel constrained and helping or helping our customers and our partners articulate the constraints and maybe break through them is some of the most fulfilling work that that I find in consulting about that.

00;35;57;21 - 00;36;22;18

Lisa Thee

So, Benson, thank you so much for your time today. It's been really enlightening. Do you mind sharing with our audience where people can find you and keep tabs on what you're working on? The best way to get in touch with me is just directly through LinkedIn. Please feel free to reach out there. The launch consulting website Launch AECOM is a terrific way and follow us on social media.

00;36;22;20 - 00;36;43;10

Lisa Thee

Thank you. Benson Really excited about the work that you're doing in vaccines and health care and looking forward to seeing more innovation to come from you. Thanks so much, Lisa. It's been a real pleasure to be on. Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening to the Navigating Forward podcast. We'd love to hear from you. At a crossroads of uncertainty and opportunity.

00;36;43;13 - 00;36;48;04

Narrrator

How do you navigate forward? We'll see you next time.

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